Add southwalk bug to arena #7110
Conversation
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@julealgon You did see that this is arena only right? Are there any compelling reasons this shouldn't be in the arena? |
I did, but I still think this is just terrible overall. If multiplayer becomes too bland without it, I would instead try to come up with other enhancements/mechanics that would make it more compelling and propose those, instead of treating this dumb bug as a feature. |
Pvp is completely obsolete without this bug, I'm not sure I can emphasize that enough. The problem is more deep rooted in the games mechanics and more systems would need a complete overhaul to make it viable without the bug. If no Southwalk in arena, the arena should be cut from devilutionx and players should use old versions to pvp, unfortunately |
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Would it be better to extract this as a member function in the player class? |
If this bug is that instrumental to PvP, my vote would then be on cutting PvP from the game entirely. An unpopular opinion, most likely. If one can't make PvP compelling enough without the need for an unintuitive, dumb pathing bug (which I personally don't believe is the case, even if might require substantial effort in other areas), then the game is just not fit for PvP and people who want that experience should just play the original, or a modded branch of DevilutionX with this patched in, but not in the official repo. |
Perhaps my efforts to resolve the tile occupation bug were a mistake then and I should re-evalute my future efforts that involve bug fixes if the end result is the alienation of pvpers, or any other player demographic Had I not done that fix, pvp would have continued being viable for a time until someone else implemented a fix. |
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@kphoenix137 I don't think you should take @julealgon's comment as absolute truth. Most of the time he is only presenting his point of view. I can see value in this change! I don't believe people want new ways to make PvP appealing, people want to have the same PvP experience even if that means (ab)using a bug in the game. Diablo 1's PvP is well-known by exploiting bugs in the game, I am ok in seeing a bug as a feature in this case. This is just my opinion. |
I don't think removing PvP is a good idea, PvP is appealing to a lot of people and one of the reasons people keep playing and contributing to this project. Your suggestion of revamping PvP is valid but let's be honest, who is going to do it? It would be a massive work. |
This is absolutely the case. This is why I even made it explicit it was "an unpopular opinion". That's all it is really, just my own take.
Agreed. It would definitely involve substantial revamping of potentially mulitple systems and would take a long time to get concensus from folks here. If I were in @kphoenix137 `s position here, this is what I'd probably move towards: a dedicated PvP mod based on DevilutionX that tries to improve the base mechanics to favor PvP and avoid unintuitive bugs such as south walking. Again, just sharing my thoughts here, nobody needs to follow any of it if they disagree 😛 |
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My response was a bit tongue in cheek but moreover food for thought. I don't believe the fix was a mistake, but it reasonably could be viewed as a mistake if the goal results in pvpers losing their platform. I am in fact working on a dedicated pvp mod, although it's going to need to remain a mod rather than being added into DevilutionX. I'm learning firsthand it's a massive challenge trying to rebalance pvp, especially because having am unofficial pvp mod has the same challenges as DevilutionX itself, where people want certain changes and don't want other changes and many don't agree on which. It's an extra challenge, because changes like these are completely arbitrary and aren't in line with the game's original vision in any capacity. I agree that Diablo in a perfect bug free state is terrible for pvp, and it's a shame. The game design as intended really doesn't work for pvp, however the state the game was left in in 1.09 worked well enough to create an active and successful pvp scene for many years, albeit imperfect, leading to much frustration of pvpers and a lot of drama. I'm very confident that a bug free pvp is possible, but like mentioned, involves massively overhauling game mechanics to a degree where it's no longer really matching the identity of the game. I advocate for keeping pvp viable in devilutionx, even if that means preserving crucial bugs as features, at least until there is a suitable replacement that can be accepted by the players as being a superior replacement and agreed upon enough to be used between pvpers. |
The southwalk bug is crucial for PVP. Without it, PVP is not viable in any capacity. This adds the exact functionality from the bug as a feature without reintroducing bad logic.